tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC August 7, 2013 11:00pm-12:00am EDT
sort of the top three in this race because if you dial down into the polling numbers the remaining support if he starts to shed that moves move evenly to deblast joe, quinn and thompson. if he keeps hemorrhaging voters it won't necessarily change the top three any one way or the other. >> hunter walker gets tonight's last word, thanks, hunter. >> thanks. >> chris hayes' show is up next. good evening. tonight, it doesn't feel like it's all that over. it's getting chilly actually. from the edward snowden situation to rush's treatment of gays and lesbians, the relationship is on the rocks. also, tonight, something else that's not really over the
threat to the u.s. from al qaeda today we're learning more about another terror blot foiled. and what in new york city have in common? you listen to one new york politician it's bankruptcy. all of that is ahead. do you remember this little hot mike slip during the election. >> that will transmit this information to vladimir. secretly quietly telling him to ignore all that. it was just politics and after the election, the u.s. and russia would be great friends and get a lot done together. maybe the flexibility that obama was speaking about that medvedev
was transmitting was a grave insult, a yo mama joke and would better explain what happened since. u.s. relations are deteriorating at a rapid pace and canceled a planned meeting with president putin the first time any american president has canceled a publicly announced visit to russia since the end of the cold war. the white house explained the decision with a laundry list of russia's policy failures the last 12 months including -- "missile defense, and arms control cited russia's decision to thumb the u.s. in the eye by granting nsa leaker edward snowden temporary asylum as a contributing factor. something the president touched on in an interview with jayleno last night too. >> i was disappointed because, you know, even though we don't have an extradition treaty with them, traditionally we have tried to respect if there's a
law breaker or an alleged law breaker in their country, we evaluate it and we try to work with them, they didn't do that with us. >> that same interview the president spoke out forcefully against the gay propaganda law. >> i have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgendered persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them. what's happening in russia is not unique. one of the things i think is very important for me to speak out on making sure people are treated fairly and justly because that's what we stand for and i believe that that's a precept that's not unique to america. that is something that should apply everywhere. >> that law, which bans gay pride rallies and imposes fines for giving information about the lesbian, gay, buyisexuality has-
jay leno himself made an analogy. >> this is germany in 1933. i mean i think you and i are of that generation, they never told you how did that happen. i mean, okay -- >> right. hitler becomes dictator and rounds up all the jews this. is how it starts. you go for the homosexuals and the jews and pretty soon they come for you. >> the public's attention is now squarely focused on russia's human right as becauses and the president of the united states weighing in on them so publicly, it means something. it means that the relationship between the u.s. and russia is in rapid decline and the president no longer trying to stop it. it's a relationship that just a few years ago seemed to be on the mend. it was called the big reset. president obama and then russian president obama dmitry medvedev not only seemed to
today, that promise of a normal healthy relationship between the two adversaries is all but gone and it was basically just an acknowledgement of that but to understand how we got here, you don't just is now living in russia but know about syria which for over two years has been embroiled in a brutal civil war between government b assad and rebel forces over 90,000 people have been killed and russia staunchly -- in june, president obama announced that the u.s. would send them to rebel forces and just hours ago he announced almost $200 billion more in humanitarian assistance for the country.
syria is a place where the u.s. and russia have most publicly clashed over the past few years. edward snowden is just breaking public and into becoming diplomat exsnubs, that, that is something new. joining me is miriam elder, foreign and security and author of "sale for a seat in canada's barment. thank you both for being here very much. >> thank you. >> great to be with you, ezra. >> i want to begin with you. because this does feel up in a way that wasn't true a couple of months ago, the snowden snub did not have a lot of upside for russia as far as meeting seems similar both sides are content to get into it. >> russia's been trying for a long time to get into a fight
with the united states. a bunch of stuff has happened over the past few months that some have forgotten, russia kicked out the u.s. agency for international development. russia cancelled the right for americans to adopt russian children. there was a huge spy scandal a couple months ago. russia has been poking for a while. the obama administration has finally realized this is a government that we can't really work with. there's certain things that the obama administration accomplished early on, including renegotiating the stark treaty on nuclear weapons. as the issues get more and more complicated including syria, i think there's been a recognition that there's not much they can do, what's the point of meeting. >> what's point the poking. what does this look like from the russian side?
what is their narrative and breakdown of the relationship? >> i think this is very much a story about what is happening inside russia and about the kind of power base he's trying to build. i think he's consciously chosen to play to but also to create an ultranationalistic, very conservative very intolerant constituency inside russia as his power base. and that's a constituency to which he's been playing to his terrible attitude toward gay people. that's a constituency to which he's playing with his aggressive stance toward western countries, toward the united states. that's a constituency to which he's playing with an incredibly fierce and incredibly deep crackdown on all of the liberal forces in russia. you know, for me, actually, the turning point was something not that noticed, but it was the
fact that the leading russian economist and academic, a very serious guy, a real, you know, your kind of guy, ezra, a russia wonk, not a political figure, he has left russia, because he decided it was too dangerous for him to stay there. so all of the internal liberal forces are being repressed. a nationalist constituency is being whipped up internally, and part of that is having a belikos attitude toward the west. this is a change inside russia. i think it's something we should be worried about. >> what's behind that change. it's not as if putin is under enormous threat from electoral competitors. why after medvedev changes his politics like that. >> quite a few protests broke out around the time of his return to the presidency. it was a challenge that he didn't expect. and he's building this sort of regime where he's closing in upon himself, he's getting fewer and fewer advisers to himself. he's getting increasingly more paranoid, although the liberal
threat is quite small, there's some middle class protesters in moscow that have never really numbered more than 100,000 in the streets. to an authoritarian regime. any show of criticism is taken as a major threat. >> krysta, where is -- >> if i can? >> yes, please. >> i was going to say, i agree with miriam, this is an authoritarian regime. they are very paranoid. and i think another thing to bear in mind is the russian economy is not totally robust. you know, putin has some things to worry about there, and i think his bet all along has been people will tolerate in russia a lack of democracy, so long as he can deliver really strong economic performance. that performance is by no means guaranteed. i think he is trying also to
secure his regime with this sort of very powerful aggressive, not very nice for the rest of the world or for liberals inside russia, nationalist power base. >> you talked a moment ago about how you felt the obama administration was slow to recognize that turn in russian politics. there's a comment obama made that the russians remain in a cold war mentality. he keeps trying to convince everyone we're not in the cold war any more. it's sort of like a pathology. they can't snap out of it. to what degree are they getting or understanding the nature of the challenge they face in this relationship now? >> i think in the beginning the obama administration was very hopeful, maybe to the point of being a bit naive. they did take a lot of slaps in the face, the ones i mentioned before about closing usaid, various things. but it seems to me that so much has happened, you can't forget also what's happened to the american presence on the ground in moscow, we have an ambassador
who was harassed for months and months by kremlin youth groups. and i think that there has been a change in understanding finally. >> thank you both for being here. >> thank you. and now, a quick realtime correction, earlier i said the u.s. would be sending almost $200 billion in humanitarian assistance to syria. that's a mistake. it's $200 million. sorry about that. the past several days have been a little unsettling. first the closing of 19 u.s. embassies because of the chatter similar to what was picked up before 9/11. now news of a foiled terror plot. nor a good while there maybe you weren't thinking much about al qaeda any more. with the news this past week, two terror plots have been discovered, the threat isn't over. richard engel is here with the latest next. engineered piece of awesome.
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"how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. and first, austerians tried to convince us the u.s. was becoming the next greece. now you won't believe who is using detroit as a temple to suggest an austerity bomb. whenever we see a threat stream that is specific enough, that we can take some specific precautions within a certain time frame, we do so. now, it's a reminder that for all the progress we made getting bin laden and al qaeda and pakistan back on its heels.
this radical violent extremism is still out there. >> that's the president -- the u.s. took that extraordinary step after intercepting communications between two top al qaeda leaders the two men talked about wanting to launch a major attack in the region to cone side with an islamic holiday. a sign of the group's ongoing presence in the region. something the president addressed again this afternoon, while speaking to troops at camp penndleton. mr. obama acknowledged the work of u.s. diplomats working to safeguard american interests. yet sounded downright bushy in his remarks on terror. >> al qaeda affiliates still facilities.
still threaten our businesses abroad. and we've got to take these threats seriously. and do all we can to confront them. we've been reminded of this again in recent days. here's what those who would cowardly attack our civilians don't get. the united states is never going to retreat from the world. we don't get terrorized. >> many authorities said they foiled an al qaeda plot to attack commercial, oil and gas facilities and take over area ports. they do not discount yemen's claim about disrupting a plot, but that plot is unrelated to the ongoing threat of western interests. u.s. officials are still tracking that threat. for more on this, we go to nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel in cairo. >> i think it's quite indicative of the way things are in yemen these days, when the government comes out and announces it has foiled a major al qaeda plot to blow up several commercial oil
and gas facilities and take over at least two ports, that the reaction is, mostly from the united states, we've heard that kind of thing before. this kind of thing happens all the time. u.s. officials aren't doubting this was true. they're pushing back and saying, that wasn't the plot that caused the embassy closures that caused the worldwide travel alerts, that was another al qaeda plot. i think to understand the situation in yemen, you need to know a little bit about the country's history, and the history of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. about two years ago, the al qaeda peninsula controlled large parts of the country. it actually had a mini-state in southern yemen. i went down there with the heavy military escort and we toured some of the areas that had just been liberated by the army. just been liberated by a military campaign, backed by the united states, backed by saudi arabia. what happened after this very long, very bloody military campaign.
al qaeda in the arabian peninsula did what was described as a tactical withdrawal. they left the deep south and they moved to three other areas. they moved to joaf. these are very remote, mountainous, difficult to reach areas, and they've been able to establish a strong hold there, and haven't really been threatened or challenged in these remote areas. al qaeda is not a large group. it's core membership is maybe just 1,000 people. these are the die hard militants. the ones who would perhaps kill themselves rather than be arrested. around that they also have another few thousand supporters, those who work for them. collaborate with them, and then maybe another layer of people who are sympathetic, that's just part of the mosaic in yemen many
then there are the tribes. the tribes in yemen are groups that just want to be independent. they don't recognize the authority of the government. they don't want the government to move through their territory. the yemeni government while we talk about it as a government is very limited in its capacity. it had to do a full on military operation backed by saudi arabia and the united states, just to liberate some territory from al qaeda. now it's been struggling to convince the tribes to allow it to hunt them down. it's not the last we've heard of al qaeda in arabia. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel thank you very much. new york city is not detroit. and i will tell you why next. for over 125 years, we've been bringing people together. today, we'd like people to come together
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remember when the scary republicans used to tell their base before going to bed at night, was that if they weren't good and didn't cut social services for poor people and pass the ryan budget, the u.s. would become greece? >> all the federal and state deficits getting so out of control, that america is rapidly becoming the next greece. >> what's his motivation for not dealing with the spending problem? does he want us to become greece?
>> we are going to have $25 trillion in debt that puts us on a path to becoming greece. the country's going to burn. >> what's calamitous is that we're becoming greece. >> the country will burn. you know what the u.s. did not become? greece. you know why we did not become greece? because we are not greece. it's a tiny economy that doesn't control its own currency and can't raise taxes on its people because they won't collect. we are the largest economy the world has ever known. we control our own currency. you know what that currency is? the dollar. the currency the rest of the world relies on. we're not part of the euro, which is at the core of greece's problems, here's one more reason we're not greece. we're running a much lower deficit than expected than all those predictions expected. according to the congressional budget office, the current laws that govern federal taxes and spending do not change, the budget deficit will shrink this year to 462 billion. so why bring all this up? why bring up the ancient history
of the greece scare? the republicans have had to move on. they're finding a new nightmare scenario if we don't pass their agenda into law. new york's mayor michael bloomberg has begun raising the spector of detroit. according to the new york post, bloomberg said cities across the country all face the prospect of pension costs, more and more of their budget and new york is no exception. as you can see from this chart, there's no doubt. no doubt at all, that pensions and health care costs are a problem. but they're not the only problem and they weren't really detroit's problem. you want to see detroit's problem, look at this graph. in 1950, there were almost 2 million people in detroit, 2 million. now that number is down to around the 700,000, which means, when your city is shrinking like that, you end up with an eroding tax base. incapable, completely unable to pay off the pension costs that
were incurred. and also not just pensions, but city services, infrastructure, all of it. in comparison, over that same period of time, new york has seen its population grow by more than half a million people, it's not been detroit. and another thing, detroit's economy has been nothing short of catastrophic. according to the city's own bankruptcy court declaration, the city lost approximately 80% of its manufacturing base. new york's economy by contrast has been booming. booming under bloomberg for better or worse. the key industry finance remains atop the world. one factor is that the fact that the city remains utterly and unbelievably racially segregated. this is a map of detroit, with dots corresponding for
neighborhoods. during the white flight, the white middle and business class took their wealth with them to the suburbs. guess which dots represent black and white? new york god bless it looks nothing like that which is not to say new york doesn't have problems. but politicians have a habit of picking the city that is worse off and using it to pass an agenda they've wanted to pass all along. joining me now is politics editor for business insider. it's good to see you. >> absolutely. >> you have a bit of a different take here, i know. give me your take on whether new york could ever become detroit? >> i think the key thing you said in there, new york's not detroit because the finance industry is riding high. the finance industry is doubled over the last 30 years. when new york was in a situation that in a lot of ways looked like the situation detroit was in now, people thought new york would go into bankruptcy. the government of new york state had to effectively save new york
city from bankruptcy. and what brought it back was the massive growth of wall street producing tremendous tax receipts, driving up the value of real estate, and that's taking us where we are today. there's going to be a union contract that's too expensive and that drives the city over the cliff. what happens if there's a definancialization of the economy. a lot of people on the left make arguments that the finance industry isn't creating value. and if we had a change in industry that made banking back to about half the size it is now, that would be a very negative thing for the economy, specifically of new york city. and the question is, is the city prepared for industrial change like that, in the way detroit was not, as its manufacturing industry fell apart. >> and this goes to, i think, an underlying problem i have in a lot of these discussions, is that there are real economic challenges with these countries. the city space, what ends up happening in the domestic political conversation, they get
boiled to whatever the particular challenge people want to talk about happens to be, so when we're talking about greece, it was jammed into this kind of deficit conversation that you had to -- the only way to not become greece was to sort of move on the ryan budget and the plans there to block medicaid and voucherize medicare. that's the only part that got talked about, nobody talked about the monetary policy, all the other things -- and that was really what was driving greece and becoming a deep competitive economy, that was trapped in a dysfunctional political situation. here too michael bloomberg has been effective. he's argued before, something of a luxury good. but that's kind of a harder conversation, so you get this kind of very boiled down version of detroit, which is simply like a largely wrong story that's meant to back up a very, very narrow, in this case political agenda. >> i think that's right, i note in the mayor's remarks today, there were two things he said
were important for the next mayor. one was to make sure the next employee contracts that get signed control pension health care costs, the other thing was what you're saying. the need to diversify the city's economy. he has worked on that, it's been challenging in new york. the city has been expensive. and focused on finance. it's good to draw people's attention to the need to do that. the reason people talk about cases like detroit, they're big and scary and get people to pay attention. you're right it can be a distraction. it draws people to these issues. we've gone from spending about $500 million a year on pension contributions to spending $8.5 billion a year. the city spends a fifth of its budget on health care and pension costs. the likely negative outcome from that is not a detroit style outcome. the likely negative outcome foregoes investments.
until we started having the pension crisis in 2009 when it was really squeezing state budgets, these costs were rising on auto pilot and people weren't paying attention to those. it's good people are paying attention, they shouldn't be afraid of literal municipal insolvency like what happened in detroit, that's rare. a detroit discussion can be productive to the extent it gets people to pay attention at all. >> one of the things that gets people to pay attention is at the base of this, this is all unsustainable without growth and continuing growth. thank you for being here tonight. >> thanks, ezra. we will be right back with click three. my asthma's under control. i don't miss out... you sat out most of our game yesterday! asthma doesn't affect my job... you were out sick last week. my asthma doesn't bother my family... you coughed all through our date night! i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. what did you say? how about - every day? coping with asthma isn't controlling it.
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summer get lucky, were reported when the band no show. cobert improvised and held a dance party of his own. ♪ >> he lip synced and gyrated his way through the song. the back story is juicy. mtv brass strong armed the cobert report. that did not sit well with steven. he was surprised on air. >> they're going to make a surprise appearance on the mtv video music awards. spoiler alert, okay? don't tell anybody. because fun fact, no one told me until 2:00 yesterday.
do not cross cobert. he will spoil your secrets and go right back to partying with matt damon. the second awesomist thing on the internet today. this is the most wonderful time of the year, it's shark week. whether it's because of the popular shark themed entertainment like sharknado or nostalgic memories of shark youth. >> these photos were a viral hit today. the real and deceased shark on a queens bound train in new york. no one knows how it got there or where it came from.
shark week is about conservation. it deeply saddens us someone would think this is funny or in anyway connected to our celebration of sharks. some people think the way to celebrate sharks -- we offer this as a pallet cleanser, the return of shark cat on a roomba. the third awesomist, ground control to tear jerker. it's been one year since mars rover curiosity touched down on mars. its spent the time analyzing soil samples while making noises like this. that's what science sounds like on mars.
it's not the prettiest sound in the world. the nasa team decided to give the little rover a special treat. curiosity's vibrations were strung together. they formed the notes to happy birthday and the results are touching and heartbreaking. >> lonely mars rover, you're going to make me cry. don't worry, we here on earth are celebrating with you. and i'll eat enough for both of us. you'll find all the links on our website. and we'll be right back. what are you doing back there? ow! that hurt!
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congress. let me give you an example. no child left behind. in support of conservative republicans many no child left behind technically expired in 2007. it is a zombie bill. no one did anything about it, they didn't reauthorize it or overhaul it. the outdated provisions of this out of touch bill are beginning to strangle the education system. 100% of school districts need to meet the mandate or will they lose money. we've known for years they will not hit those targets. that means they will lose tons of money. we needed to do some, but, you know, congress. the obama administration began giving out waivers, telling almost 40 states they're letting them out of no child left behind as long as they agree to meet other quality targets. today they took another step.
after rejecting california's request for a waiver, they said yes to eight individual school districts in california. that's the first time it ever happened. with congress doing nothing this governing by waiver is becoming common. the obama administration decided to delay parts of obama care for a year. after the dream act failed in congress, the obama administration decided to stop processing immigrants. they basically implemented the law. to republicans in congress, this is lawlessness. this is the executive branch stepping out of its bounds. the democrats in congress, it's the only way for the executive branch to govern amidst our republican party that refuses to work with this white house.
this is why congressional gridlock is not like traffic gridlock. things move, laws get made. they're just not made the way they're supposed to be made. co author of the book, the broken branch, how congress is failing america, and how to get it back on track, thank you both for being here. maddie, i want to start with you, what do you think of these wavers, i imagine you're not a huge fan of them. >> this unilateral action by the executive branch. we're thinking on the right that this is problematic, i think the same thing was happening on the left during the george w. bush years. it was the same kind of over average in the executive branch. you mentioned dreamers, obama care. these are all agenda items that the president decided to execute because he didn't want to involve congress.
because he couldn't promote his agenda through congress. that's not the way we make laws in this country. we can't pretend just because the president wants to do something, another branch of government doesn't that gives him the authority to do so. >> you've studied relationships between congress and the executive branch for a long time. is what we're seeing here unprecedented or a more normal thing? >> it's more normal, taken to a different level. i get amused when i see the back and forth on this. i remember wall street editorials during the reagan and bush years which made it clear there was no article i in the constitution. now you're getting indignation over things that they had deeply supported in the past. i don't like to see -- i didn't like to see all kinds of signing
statements that basically said i've signed this law, but i'm not going to implement major parts of it. i think presidents can go too far on that front. in fact, the larger point here is, congress is willfully not acting. they're trying to sabotage additional laws. there's not a lot a president can do except to issue waivers. conservatives have supported waivers when it gives power to the states and governors to do things. that's what we're seeing here. >> one of the interesting things here, is not that congress is choosing not to act -- they're not doing that they're not being able to make any decision at all. because there's a flip side if republicans controlled congress, they could take away authority on these things. the obama administration's actions are being protected by democrats in congress who run the senate and a tiny bit of power in the house. you do have that piece as well. this is the collision between
the sides where neither side can stop the president. >> both sides are responsible for us continuing to cede power to the president. i think obama care and no child left behind are instructive in this instance. it's not just that congress is unwilling to act. the senate hasn't acted on anything, they haven't even marked up anything in committee. that shows you what side is moving on things. the idea that we can have an employer mandate waved but not the individual side of things is ludicrous. you should have the entire law go into effect rather than picking and chooses where you think it will be success. that motion hasn't been taken up by the senate. even though the republicans the last thing they did when they were in town is pass a waiver for american families. >> we're always going to find a back and forth and give and take. even when there were democratic
congresses, they assert their authority. usually they work things out on most issues and find through give and take. this is different than what we've seen before. this is an all out war. we've seen def:coni raised too many times. we're seeing a massive pileup on 405. >> i want to talk to you about the massive pileup when we come back. the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor.
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>> that was republican senator ted cruz speaking last week at a heritage foundation event. the nondisaster he's referring to there is a 1995 government shutdown. he's trying to convince conservatives to forget the more unpleasant things he might remember about that shutdown and its ramifications because he thinks the key to convincing democrats to throw out the affordable care act. the signature achievement of the obama era, the republican party is ready to shut down around it. the republican party is by no means united behind him, tom coburn said it won't work, richard burke called it the dumbest idea he had heard of. mitt roomny telling a room full of republicans yesterday, i badly want obama care to go away and stripping it of funds has appeal, but we need to exercise great care about any talk of shutting down the government. what would come next when soldiers aren't paid and seniors fear for their medicare and
social security. and the fbi is off duty. the people of the nation would not be happy. those are all excellent questions as we continue our conversation about governing through gridlock. back with us at the table. this is to me the other side of this gridlock, right? there's a bunch of stuff, it's not that nothing happens, some stuff happens, and then some stuff when it doesn't happen, like funding the government or raising the debt ceiling has a capacity to cause widespread disruption and chaos in the american economy or services americans depend on. that too has been a bit of a sickness here, has become a belief, instead of going to the table and ironing out differences and pieces of legislation, and what gets you to the other end, it was a kind of hostage taking mentality that's coming about. >> that's why i live in washington, i love that kind of thing.
the problem with the government shut down fight, the republicans are the party of less government. if the government stops doing things, people are going to get upset. i live in d.c., they won't look after parking, i'm excited about that. but they hold political parties accountable. the other thing with the government shutdown. senator lee is talking about the resolution, the funding of the government this is going to run up against another debt limit debate. that takes on a whole other character, when we talk about that, to the american public, people who aren't sitting in washington, d.c., watching this every second as it goes by, these two mean the same thing, even though there's two different battles. for republicans and democrats who are trying to iron out these problems here in washington. they're going to be thinking ten steps ahead, rather than this one. which is linear thinking on the obama care strategy.
>> it does seem to me that the approach to negotiating and legislating has changed, one of the reason you see the executive branch and for that matter, the federal reserve and agencies taking more power as things don't get done in washington. there's become a giving up, a belief that if you have a party, and the republican party now that is willing to put the debt limit in jeopardy, one to possibly shut down the government, that there aren't deals to be made there, at a certain time it's time to find ways to govern. >> that's a sad phenomenon, you don't want those decisions made by others outside of the elected branchs doing give and take. you have a mind-set that is the basic functions of government are not something we have responsibility for, it's something we're going to give to you in return for your giving up something that is a law that has been passed. we're trying to sabotage it in other ways, but by god we're going to hold that hostage, we're going to hold the full faith of the government hostage. before this era, everyone knew they were going to make it happen, because it was
irresponsible not to. we have leaders like john boehner who go from saying, we can't let that happen, that would be crazy and terrible for the united states, now bullied by his own caucus and cowed into submission saying, well, i'll tell you what, we're going to use the boehner rule, we'll increase the debt limit if you do another set of hundreds of billions of dollars in additional cuts beyond what we've already done. this is not like governing we've seen before, and it's beyond irresponsible. >> isn't the danger here that congress and accountable branches begin to fall in power as opposed to more unaccountable. >> i think that's the worry for folks who are in congress. and folks who are observers of what's going on in washington right now much things like the sequester, we're supposed to embody this idea, we're going to have an automatic spending cut because the parties can't come to an agreement on where we should be having cuts. this is th